SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region...
Karaganov: I already spoke 8 years ago about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL: You mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media in this sense, they behave more modestly in comparison with NATO. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: Soviet Union by then it had practically collapsed from the inside, but nevertheless decided to deploy SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL: ... that is, if I understood you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now it’s a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council that you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it you often talk about the only thing possible way for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good job - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand that we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military action in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. In Europe politic system, which will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It’s not difficult to notice that you are in Russia Lately actively rejoice at our failures. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, and not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: So, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are more illegitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me count... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you referring to the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who would try to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We are also in Soviet time were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of the Russian foreign policy lately?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You shouldn’t expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong, because we are right. On this moment Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
Sergey Karaganov personal advisor Putin gave a tough interview German magazine SPIEGEL
Sergei Karaganov (Putin’s personal adviser, dean of an elite Moscow university and much more) recently gave an interview to the German magazine Spiegel (the interview became a real hit in the German mass media). As far as I can know, the interview has never been translated into Russian anywhere (and certainly not advertised anywhere in the Russian media). That’s why I’m translating it myself now - you need to see and know this!!!
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region...
Karaganov: I already spoke 8 years ago about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL: You mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media in this sense are more modest in comparison with NATO ones. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL: ... that is, if I understand you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now it’s a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30–40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council that you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good job - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military action in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It’s not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, and not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: So, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO begins aggression against a country that has such a nuclear arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are more illegitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me do the math... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you referring to the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who would try to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You should not expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong - because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO intends to strengthen its military presence in Eastern Europe- as a reaction to Russia's recent actions. Western politicians warn that both sides could slide into a situation that could lead to war. Are such fears exaggerated?
Karaganov: Eight years ago...
SPIEGEL: ...when the war broke out in Georgia...
Karaganov: ...I spoke about the pre-war situation. Even then, mutual trust between major powers tended to zero. Russia has begun rearmament of its army. Since then the situation has worsened. We warned NATO against approaching the borders of Ukraine, since this would create an unacceptable situation for us. Russia stopped the advance of the West in this direction, thereby, hopefully, the danger of a major war in Europe was averted. But the propaganda that is being carried out now suggests a time before a new war.
SPIEGEL: We hope these words of yours also apply to Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media behave more restrained than Western ones. Although you must understand: in Russia there is a strong defense consciousness. We must be prepared for anything. Hence the sometimes massive propaganda. But what is the West doing? He satanizes Russia, he insists that we threaten aggression. The situation is comparable to the crisis of the late 70s - early 80s.
SPIEGEL: You mean the deployment of Soviet missiles and the US reaction?
Karaganov: There was a feeling of weakness in Europe at that time; the Europeans were afraid that the United States would leave the continent. They talk about the Soviet threat. Soviet Union, weak from within, but at its peak military power goes to this stupidity with the deployment of CC-20 missiles. Thus begins a completely meaningless crisis. Today the situation is reversed. Today, Eastern European countries such as Poland, Lithuania or Latvia are trying to reassure that NATO is stationing its weapons on their territory. Missile defense systems are also deployed. We regard such actions as a provocation. In the event of a crisis, it is these weapons that will be destroyed. Russia will never again fight on its territory...
SPIEGEL: ... and, if I understand you correctly, will implement the concept of “forward defense.”
Karaganov: NATO is already 800 km closer to Russian borders, the weapons are completely different, strategic stability in Europe has weakened. Things are much worse than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: Russian Federation, including President Putin, is trying to convince its own population that the West wants war to split Russia into pieces. But this is absurd.
Karaganov: Of course, this is an exaggeration. But American politicians openly say that sanctions should lead to regime change in Russia. And this is a rather aggressive position.
SPIEGEL: Evening news broadcasts on Russian television seem to be increasingly moving away from reality. Even one Moscow newspaper these days wrote about the “ghost” of an external threat.
Karaganov: Political elites Russia is not ready for internal reforms, the threat to them is very useful. Don't forget, Russia is built on two national ideas: This is defense and sovereignty. Here, security issues are treated much more carefully than in other countries.
SPIEGEL: Even serious Russian sources do not view NATO expansion as a threat to Russia. Before the annexation of Crimea, such a threat was a kind of paper tiger.
Karaganov: NATO expansion was perceived as a betrayal.
SPIEGEL: Your Council presented precisely these theses on foreign and defense policy. In the document you talk about returning leadership in the world, about strength. The message is clear: Russia does not want to lose its influence. But what does it offer?
Karaganov: We want to prevent further destabilization in the world. And we want great power status. Unfortunately, we cannot give it up - this status has become part of our genome over the past 300 years. We want to be the center of greater Eurasia, a zone of peace and cooperation. This greater Eurasia will also include the subcontinent of Europe.
SPIEGEL: Europeans consider the current Russian politics ambiguous. Moscow's intentions do not seem obvious to them.
Karaganov: V currently we are in a position where we don't trust you at all - after all the disappointments recent years. And therefore the reaction is appropriate. There is such a thing as a tactical surprise tool. You should know that we are smarter, stronger and more determined.
SPIEGEL: What was unexpected, for example, was the partial withdrawal Russian troops from Syria. You have deliberately left it up to the West to guess how many troops you will withdraw and how many of them you may secretly bring back. These tactics do not build trust.
Karaganov: It was masterful, top class. We use our superiority in this area. Russians are bad traders, they don't like to deal with economics. But we are excellent fighters and excellent diplomats. You have a different political system in Europe. One that cannot adapt to the challenges of the new world. The German chancellor said that our president lives in an illusory world. In my opinion, he lives in a very real world.
SPIEGEL: It's impossible not to notice Russia's schadenfreude over the problems facing Europe today. What is it due to?
Karaganov: Many of my colleagues look at our European partners with a grin. I always warn them against arrogance and arrogance. Some European elites need confrontation with us. And therefore we will not help Europe now, although we could do this in the current situation with refugees. What is needed now is a joint closure of the borders. In this regard, Russians are more effective than Europeans. But you are bargaining with Turkey, and this is a shame. In the face of our problems, we pursued a clear, tough political line towards Turkey, which was crowned with success.
SPIEGEL: You say that you are disappointed in Europe, which has betrayed its Christian ideals. They say that in the 90s Russia certainly wanted to go to Europe - but this was the Europe of the Adenauers, Churchills and de Gaulleys.
Karaganov: The majority of Europeans also want the return of this Europe. In the next decade, current Europe will no longer be a model for Russia.
SPIEGEL: In its “Theses,” the Foreign Policy Council calls for the use of military force provided there is “a clear threat to the important interests of the country.” Was Ukraine such an example?
Karaganov: Yes. Or a concentration of troops that we believe threatens war.
SPIEGEL: The deployment of NATO battalions in the Baltic countries is not enough for this?
Karaganov: Talking about how we want to attack the Baltic countries is idiocy. Why is NATO transferring weapons there and military equipment? Imagine what will happen to them in the event of a crisis. NATO assistance is not symbolic assistance to the Baltic states, it is a provocation.
SPIEGEL: Don't you think it is necessary to restore dialogue in the format of the Russia-NATO Council - as many in the West are calling for?
Karaganov: He has lost his legitimacy. In addition, NATO itself has become qualitatively different. When we began a dialogue with this organization, it was a defensive alliance of democratic powers. But then aggressions were committed against Yugoslavia, Libya, and most NATO members attacked Iraq. The Russia-NATO Council served as a cover and legalization for NATO expansion. When we really needed the advice, in 2008 and 2014, it didn't work...
SPIEGEL: You are talking about the wars in Georgia and Ukraine. Your “Theses” contain such concepts as national dignity, courage, and honor. Are these political categories?
Karaganov: These are the decisive values of Russia. In Putin's world and in my world, it is simply unthinkable for women to be groped and raped in public space.
SPIEGEL: Are you hinting at the events in Cologne on New Year's Eve?
Karaganov: Men who would organize something like that in Russia would simply be killed. The mistake is that Germans and Russians have not had a serious conversation about their own values in the last 25 years - or have been unwilling to understand each other when it comes to the topic. In Soviet times, we also insisted that only universal values exist - exactly as the West does today. It scares me when Europeans say let's have more democracy. This reminds me of how we once said: let’s have more socialism.
SPIEGEL: What mistakes of Russian foreign policy do you highlight in your Theses?
Karaganov: In past years we did not have political strategy in relation to our immediate neighbors - the former Soviet republics. We didn't understand what was really going on there. The only thing we did was subsidize these countries, that is, bribe the local elites with money, which was then stolen - I suspect, jointly. Therefore, in particular, it was not possible to prevent the conflict in Ukraine. The second problem: for too long our policy has been aimed at correcting the past, the omissions of the 90s. And finally, we were weak and believed the promises of the West.
SPIEGEL: There are signs that after the parliamentary elections in September, Russia will refocus its foreign policy and send signals of détente. Or are we mistaken?
Karaganov: We believe that Russia - unlike the Soviet Union - is morally right. Therefore, there will be no fundamental concessions on our part. Mentally, Russia today has become a Eurasian power - I was one of the intellectual fathers of the turn to the East. But today I do not believe that we should turn our backs on Europe. She is the cradle of our culture. She needs release. We will look for ways that will allow us to breathe new life in our relations with Europe.
Sergei Karaganov (Putin’s personal advisor, dean of an elite Moscow university and much more) recently gave an interview to the German magazine Der Spiegel (the interview became a real hit in the German media)
Sergey Karaganov
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European region of NATO...
Karaganov: 8 years ago I spoke about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL:Do you mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL:I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: In this sense, Russian media are more modest in comparison with NATO media. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL:Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy the SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL:... that is, if I understand you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now there is a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL:President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good thing - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL:For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military operations in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It is not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL:Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: Well, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are no longer legitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me do the math... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you hinting at the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who tried to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL:Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You should not expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong - because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
A charming interview with Sergei Karaganov for Der Spiegel magazine.Karaganov is an unofficial person and can express himself without diplomatic foam. However, he is one of those who today determines the country's foreign policy.
Russia was considered part of the old USSR - decrepit, cowardly, ready for any compromise. But from his remains grew new Russia- energetic and ambitious. And Europe is in the process of disintegrating...It seems like a trivial interview, but stunning in terms of its frankness.
Der Spiegel, Germany
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region...
Karaganov: I already spoke 8 years ago about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL: You mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media in this sense are more modest in comparison with NATO ones. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy the SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL: ... that is, if I understood you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now it’s a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the presidential council that you head published an open report to the president. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good thing - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military action in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It’s not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed in Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, and not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: So, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are more illegitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL: ...let me count... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you hinting at the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who would try to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You shouldn’t expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong, because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
