Sergey Karaganov ( personal advisor Putin, dean of the Moscow elite university and much more) recently gave an interview German magazine Spiegel (the interview became a real hit in the German media). As far as I can know, the interview has never been translated into Russian anywhere (and certainly not advertised anywhere in the Russian media). That’s why I’m translating it myself now - you need to see and know this!!!
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region...
Karaganov: I already spoke 8 years ago about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL: You mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media in this sense, they behave more modestly in comparison with NATO. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: Soviet Union by then it had practically collapsed from the inside, but nevertheless decided to deploy SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL:... that is, if I understand you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now it’s a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30–40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it you often talk about the only thing possible way for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good job - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military action in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. In Europe politic system, which will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It’s not difficult to notice that you are in Russia Lately actively rejoice at our failures. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, and not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: So, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO begins aggression against a country that has such a nuclear arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are more illegitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me count... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you referring to the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who would try to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We are also in Soviet time were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of the Russian foreign policy lately?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You should not expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong - because we are right. On this moment Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region... Karaganov: I already spoke about a situation close to war 8 years ago.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: In this sense, Russian media are more modest in comparison with NATO media. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy the SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL:... that is, if I understand you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now there is a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good thing - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military operations in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It is not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: Well, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are no longer legitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me do the math... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you hinting at the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who tried to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You should not expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong - because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
A charming interview with Sergei Karaganov for Der Spiegel magazine.Karaganov is an unofficial person and can express himself without diplomatic foam. However, he is one of those who today determines the country's foreign policy.
Russia was considered part of the old USSR - decrepit, cowardly, ready for any compromise. But from his remains grew new Russia- energetic and ambitious. And Europe is in the process of disintegrating...It seems like a trivial interview, but stunning in terms of its frankness.
Der Spiegel, Germany
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region...
Karaganov: I already spoke 8 years ago about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL: You mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media in this sense are more modest in comparison with NATO ones. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy the SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries like Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL: ... that is, if I understood you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now it’s a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council, which you head, published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good thing - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military action in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It’s not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. Therefore, we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed in Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, and not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: So, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are more illegitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL: ...let me count... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you referring to the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who would try to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You shouldn’t expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong, because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
Sergei Karaganov (Putin’s personal advisor, dean of an elite Moscow university and much more) recently gave an interview to the German magazine Der Spiegel (the interview became a real hit in the German media)
Sergey Karaganov
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European region of NATO...
Karaganov: I already spoke about a situation close to war 8 years ago.
SPIEGEL:Do you mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL:I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: In this sense, Russian media are more modest in comparison with NATO media. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL:Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy the SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL:... that is, if I understand you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now there is a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL:President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good thing - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand - we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL:For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military operations in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It is not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. That’s why we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL:Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: Well, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are no longer legitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me do the math... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you hinting at the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who tried to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL:Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You should not expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong - because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
SPIEGEL: Sergei Alexandrovich, NATO plans to expand its activities in the Eastern European NATO region...
Karaganov: I already spoke 8 years ago about a situation close to war.
SPIEGEL: You mean from the moment the war began in Georgia?
Karaganov: Even then, trust between our large opposing countries was close to zero. Russia was just starting the process of rearmament. Since then, the situation in terms of trust has only worsened. We warned NATO in advance - there is no need to approach the borders of Ukraine. Fortunately, Russia was able to stop NATO's advance in this direction. Thus, the danger of war in Europe in the medium term has, for now, been reduced. But the propaganda that is being carried out now is very reminiscent of a state of war.
SPIEGEL: I hope that in terms of propaganda you also mean Russia?
Karaganov: Russian media in this sense are more modest in comparison with NATO ones. And most importantly, you must understand: a sense of security from an external enemy is very important for Russia. We must be prepared for anything. For this reason, our media sometimes exaggerate somewhat. What is the West doing? You accuse us of being aggressive. The situation is similar to what it was in the late 70s and early 80s.
SPIEGEL: Do you mean the deployment of Soviet medium-range missiles and the American reaction to these actions?
Karaganov: The Soviet Union had already practically collapsed from within, but nevertheless decided to deploy the SS-20 missile systems. Thus starting a completely unnecessary crisis. Now the West is doing exactly the same thing. You reassure countries such as Poland, Lithuania and Latvia by deploying missile systems there. But this won’t help them at all, it’s a provocation. If a full-scale crisis begins, these weapons will be destroyed by us first. Russia will never fight on its territory again!
SPIEGEL: ... that is, if I understood you correctly now, will Russia attack? Move forward?
Karaganov: You understand - now it’s a completely different, new weapon. The situation is much worse than 30-40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: President Putin is trying to convince his people that Europe is almost planning an attack on Russia. But this is absurd! Don't you think so?
Karaganov: Of course, this is somewhat exaggerated. But Americans are now openly saying that sanctions against Russia are intended to change power in Russia. This is open aggression, we must react.
SPIEGEL: Just recently, the Presidential Council you head published an open report to the President. I got to know him in detail. In it, you often talk about the only possible path for Russia - the return of its former power. The idea is clear, but what are your specific proposals?
Karaganov: First of all, we are doing a good job - we want to resist further destabilization of the world community in the future. And we want the status of a great power, we want to get it back. Unfortunately, we simply cannot refuse this - 300 years have left their mark on our genes. We want to become the center of greater Eurasia, a place where peace and cooperation reign. The continent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans now do not trust Russia, do not understand its policies, considering them strange. The goals of your leadership in Moscow are incomprehensible to us.
Karaganov: You must understand that we now trust you exactly 0 percent. After all the recent disappointments, this is natural. Start from this. We are doing something that can be called a tactical warning. The goal is to realize that we are smarter, stronger and more determined than you think.
SPIEGEL: For example, we were greatly, and unpleasantly, surprised by your recent approach to military action in Syria. It’s as if we don’t act together there, but we still cooperate in a sense. But recently you withdrew part of your troops without even informing us about it. That's not how trust works...
Karaganov: This was a very strong, wonderful step by my leadership. We act on the basis that we are stronger in this region. Russians may not be so strong in economics or in the art of negotiation, but we are excellent warriors. You have a political system in Europe that will not stand the test of time. You cannot adapt to new challenges. You are too down to earth. Your chancellor once said that our president is out of touch with reality. So - you are too real in this sense.
SPIEGEL: It’s not difficult to notice that you in Russia have been actively rejoicing at our failures lately. In particular, regarding our problem with refugees. Why is that?
Karaganov: Yes, many of my colleagues often mock you and your problems, but I constantly tell them that there is no need to be arrogant. Well, so what do you want: the European elites were looking for confrontation with us - they found it. Therefore, we will not help Europe, although we could easily do so in the issue of refugees. For example, we could close the borders together - in this sense, we can act 10 times more efficiently than you, Europeans. But instead you are trying to cooperate with Turkey. This is a shame for you! We stick to our hard line, and we stick to it with success.
SPIEGEL: You constantly say that you are disappointed with Europe and what is happening there. But Russia just recently wanted to go to Europe? Or did you want the Europe of the times of Adenauer and De Gaulle and are surprised by the changes?
Karaganov: Don’t make me laugh - most Europeans also want that Europe, and not the modern one. In the coming decades, Europe will clearly not be an example for us, what we want and what we need.
SPIEGEL: Your report mentions several times that the use of weapons is “an obvious and correct measure in cases where the interests of the state are clearly affected.” By this do you mean Ukraine?
Kagaranov: Yes, definitely. And besides, there are cases when serious enemy forces are concentrated near the state.
SPIEGEL: So, are you saying that the accumulation of NATO troops in the Baltic countries is exactly that case?
Kagaranov: The idea that we are ready to start a confrontation is idiotic. Why is NATO gathering troops there, well, tell me, why? Do you have any idea what will happen to these troops if there really is an open confrontation? This is your symbolic assistance to the Baltic countries, nothing more. If NATO starts aggression against a country that has such an atomic arsenal as ours, you will be punished.
SPIEGEL: There are plans to revive the Russia-NATO dialogue. As I understand it, you do not take such ideas seriously?
Karaganov: Such meetings are more illegitimate. Moreover, NATO has evolved over time into something completely different. You started out as a union of democratic states with the goal of protecting yourself. But gradually it all turned into an idea of constant expansion. Then, when we needed dialogue - in 2008 and 2014, you did not give us a chance for dialogue.
SPIEGEL:... let me count... Do you mean the crisis in Georgia and Ukraine? It's clear. Tell me, in your report you constantly encounter terms such as “honor”, “valor”, “courage”, “dignity”... is this political vocabulary?
Karaganov: This is something that really has value for the Russian people. In Putin’s world, as well as in my world, it is simply unimaginable that a woman’s honor can be violated in the most obscene manner.
SPIEGEL: Are you referring to the ill-fated Christmas night in Cologne?
Karaganov: In Russia, men who would try to do something like that would be killed on the spot. The mistake is that both the Germans and the Russians spent many years searching for some universal values, without actually understanding what they were talking about. We, too, in Soviet times were looking for socialism. Your search for democracy is very similar to our search for socialism.
SPIEGEL: What do you see as the mistakes of Russian foreign policy in recent times?
Karaganov: The fact is that in the near past we did not have any clear policy towards our closest neighbors - the post-Soviet countries. The only thing we did was subsidize and buy elites. The money was partially stolen - from both sides. And, as the conflict in Ukraine has shown, it is impossible to avoid a global crisis. Our second mistake is that our policy has been aimed at correcting the mistakes of the 90s for too long.
SPIEGEL: Last question. Are there any chances that Russia will look for ways to cooperate in the near future?
Karaganov: You shouldn’t expect direct and open admissions that we are wrong, because we are right. At the moment, Russia has become an Asian-European powerful power. And I was one of those who identified this path of development, to the east, as the correct one. But at the moment I can say that we should turn to Europe again to some extent. That's the only thing I can say.
